English Thread

[Josie]

and as for "imitating the American accent" - forget it   . "The American Accent", I believe, only "exists" outside of the US - within the States, there's a multitude of different accents... especially on a journey from New York to Miami you'll notice.

I grew up as a "military brat" (of sorts). My father was a High School teacher for military dependents here in Germany.  My father is from Missouri. I went to school with kids from all over the States. I still have fun when I am back in the States and people ask me "Where are you from?" I answer "Germany" in obviously not very "foreign" accented English. They look at me bewildered, so I say "... but I am an American." Then they ask "Where in the States are you from? I can't tell from your accent." I let them guess   Nobody ever says "Missouri" - I talk to fast for that.


Another "trait" of a military brat (or a bad habit) is that they tend to pick up the accent of the person that they are talking to during the conversation. If you are talking to "non-brats", they notice that sometimes and think you are trying to mimick them and get upset...

BTW, a lot of people accuse me of having a German accent, too. It is sorta along the line of - if you can't place the accent (in Germany), then they are from Berlin  

My "German accent" is most notable nowadays in my writing - I put commas everywhere

[Crimson Tide]

Hi,

It sounds so familiar to me, the question,"Where are you come from?"   , or,"Your accent is so cute!"   After one sentence the person I'm talking to begins to smile and I can hear always the same!  

I had not only the problem of speaking very bad English when I arrived
in the US, ( it is much more easier to learn s.th. as a young student),   but also I have now, after nearly three years, the problem, not to know immediately the German word for something! I really forgot vocabularies, or I need some time to remember!

I think It will be better after a few weeks, having been returned to Germany!

Then I have to find people like me, to meet them one time a week or so, to keep (and to improve) my learned English language skills!

Regards,
Monika

[Elmo]

@ratlady: Uhm, I don´t necessarily want to appear American, but I don´t want to appear German either, just because I don´t like the extreme German accent. When you are used to listening to Americans talking and then you hear a German speaking English it´s kinda funny.  
It´s just that I have put so much effort into improving my skills that I´d like to start getting compliments for it. And a native not noticing you´re foreign would be the best of all compliments , wouldn´t it?
But probably you´re right, it is VERY difficult to overcome your accent. Compare it to foreigners talking German, you´ll hear it instantly - even the slightest difference. But I´d say a foreigner always tries harder, so you would understand them better than someone from Lower Bavaria or Saxony.  
But I´d happy if it worked out somewhat. I remember a job interview I had to speak English at. Despite my skills, there´s always the nervousness to consider and back then I had some sort of a blackout - almost all words were gone and there was it again - the German accent.  

And as for the different American accents: I´ve always been wondering about that question, but haven´t got an answer. The only accents that I know are the "normal" one and the southern accent. I figured there were several accents, but I´ve never heard of them?!

And by the way, it can´t be that difficult to appear like an American. Just put some chewing gum into your mouth and start babbling.    

@Josie: I always find it very bad that Americans are so "embedded" in their barracks. The brother of my brother-in-law has an American girlfriend. I think she was born here, plus she has a German mother, and her German is very bad. Now she´s experiencing the disadvantages of that, now that her parents are back in the states and she is still here living with her boyfriend.
The next barracks is only 10km away from my home and I have no contact to Americans - I just see the big SUVs driving around.  

[ratlady]

OK, since I "promised"...    Trying to keep "it" alive even though I've gotta get up again in less than 5h..    

@ratlady: Uhm, I don´t necessarily want to appear American, but I don´t want to appear German either, just because I don´t like the extreme German accent. When you are used to listening to Americans talking and then you hear a German speaking English it´s kinda funny.  

I know what you mean - but then again, I don't think you for yourself really "hear" your own accent ...   Don't you think that all those Germans with that "horrible" accent are in fact trying hard to "eliminate" that - and maybe even think they "succeeded"? I'm really not so sure... for example, I know I have certain "problems" with English but yet, I can't really "hear" my accent as that... however, when listening to my brother, who's also fluent in English, I can hear it immediately... so, I THINK my English sounds different than his (especially regarding "th") but in the end, who knows...    

A few years ago, I met a German who'd been living in the US for more than a quarter century, and his German was all but rudimentary... yet, he STILL had that "awful" accent when speaking English...  

And, as Josie said - if you try to "imitate" anything, it may just go down the wrong way...  

It´s just that I have put so much effort into improving my skills that I´d like to start getting compliments for it. And a native not noticing you´re foreign would be the best of all compliments , wouldn´t it?

Well, as I said before - you WILL get complimented on your language skills, for sure... provided you do go over there and give it a try   And, a "native" will always notice you're from "somewhere else" - nothing wrong or bad about that, so just don't worry too much.  

The one thing I think about "English skills" - once you stop "translating" and really start "speaking", that's when you "got it"... and that's also when you're gonna run into the "reverse" problem, just as Crimson Tide said:

but also I have now, after nearly three years, the problem, not to know immediately the German word for something! I really forgot vocabularies, or I need some time to remember!

I can also testify to that! Luckily, nowadays I have the "luxury" of visiting German internet discussion boards fairly regularly, which helps a lot... but I remember several years ago, sometimes I'd call home and just felt like an idiot, stuttering and scrambling for words...  

@Josie:

My "German accent" is most notable nowadays in my writing - I put commas everywhere

*lol* - I may be wrong but my impression is, whereever there would be a comma in German there's none in English, and vice versa...  

[Elmo]

So, if nobody wants to write something then I´ll do it. I can entertain myself.  

@ratlady:

but I remember several years ago, sometimes I'd call home and just felt like an idiot, stuttering and scrambling for words...

It´s very strange and even though I don´t use English in my everyday life, that happened to me, too!
And sometimes it´s even easier to use English to describe a particular situation. There are some words you would at least need 5 words in German to describe it. I don´t know if you know what I mean..I can´t think of an example for you right now..

The one thing I think about "English skills" - once you stop "translating" and really start "speaking", that's when you "got it"...

Yeah, you´re right. I noticed that oftentimes it works fine for me, I don´t have to translate when wanting to say something in English and vice versa. But when it comes to difficult terms or some particular words I don´t know the translation of, the German language catches up with me.  

@all: Maybe we could talk about traveling again? I know we had that topic before, but there´s something I noticed the other day.
It seems that almost everything gets cheaper the later you book it - rental car, flights.. I´m not sure with accommodations, though.
And flights are a lot cheaper when booked with one airline. I saw an offer from KLM to New York and from Miami for less than 500€. But who wants to have two stops anyways? It´d take almost 17 hours to get home!

And there´s another thing about traveling: I´ve never taken an individual vacation before. A package holiday is so comfortable; you just pay the charge and then you can relax at the beach.  
But if you have to care about everything for yourself...oh my gosh...there are so many things to take into consideration. You discover one problem and after solving this one, 10 others pop up.  
How do you do that? It must be easier for America-experienced travelers since they have a certain overview of all issues.

[ratlady]

Well, even though I've heard some "hints" at reviving this thread, I guess it still takes a woman to make it happen...   

Anyway, looking at all the people in the other (German) "English-Thread" claiming their abilities and interest in the English language, and/or wishing for more practice outside of their US-vacations, maybe we can also get some more people involved here this time... 

I probably would've done this earlier but really didn't want to start off with the weather again (which happens to be nice, warm, and sunny over here ...)  So, last night I heard something on the news that reminded me of the "how to determine baggage weight on the way home"-discussion, or rather, the "off-topic" part of it. Even though this is not for travellers to US/Canada (yet?), i.e. a little "outside" of the actual "concern" of this board, I found it interesting for it is exactly about the airlines trying to reduce weight in order to save fuel (of course, their concern is purely financial; any environmental benefit would be a nice side effect though  ). Maybe we can start a little "pro/con" discussion or something...for a start, at least - after all, there's really no topic in this thread so no danger of going "off-topic" at all 

(since I'm not sure whether or not the link's going to "expire" eventually, I've copied the passages that I find most interesting below:)

British Airways will begin limiting some of its long haul passengers to a single bag per passenger — and charging them 120 pounds ($236) per flight for every extra piece of luggage each way, the company said Thursday.

The change applies to passengers flying economy class to destinations outside North America, the Caribbean, Nigeria and Brazil. While passengers to destinations such as Europe and Asia were previously allowed as many bags as they wished, they would now be limited to one bag — and charged for the excess.

Domestic passengers would be charged 30 pounds ($59) for every bag beyond the first, while the price for extra bags taken to Europe would rise to 60 pounds ($118).

[...]

Club World, World Traveller, and first class passengers would still be allowed to check in more than one bag. BA said it would offer a 30 percent discount to customers who prepay online.

The changes don't come as a total surprise to industry experts.

Last August, Tripso columnist and MSNBC.com contributor Charlie Leocha wrote a story predicting a similar change.

Mr. Leocha wrote:

Some industry analysts say that domestic airlines handle as much in luggage weight as they do in passenger weight, and the Transportation Security Administration reports that more than 50 percent of its $6-something billion budget goes to baggage screening.
 
Clearly, there’s money to be saved — and made — if the airlines can reduce checked baggage and charge extra for it at the same time. As “debundlings” go, luggage may prove more profitable than the late lamented in-flight meal.

Change is coming. The discussions are well along; in fact, luggage changes have been bandied about in boardrooms and revenue maximization meetings since the mid-1990s. The airline world is just waiting for the major airline with the most courage to take the first step. My guess is that all the legacy carriers will follow suit almost immediately, at least for domestic flights.

Air Canada, which moved more than 400,000 tons of checked baggage last year, is already testing online “Go Discount” fares, which offer added discounts to passengers who promise not to check their luggage or change their travel dates. Ryanair, in Europe, has been charging for checked luggage for years, and some passengers pay as much to bring their luggage as they do for their airline ticket.

Let’s face it, fuel costs are skyrocketing. Airlines are looking to save weight in every possible way, including using plastic forks and spoons, removing seatback phones and eliminating magazines. Lightening the luggage load would make a much bigger difference.

The airlines have already debundled food from most flights. They have debundled telephone ticketing from the sales process. Some have debundled exit-row seats, now charging extra for them. Others have reduced the luggage weight allowance from 70 pounds to 50 pounds. Some have eliminated blankets and pillows, and seats are squeezed closer together than at any time in history. The list of cost-cutting and fee-generating measures goes on and on.

Now the legacy airlines are seriously looking at the bare-bones Ryanair model, which is to strip the purchase of passage from point A to point B to the bare minimum: a seat on the airplane. Everything else becomes extra: luggage, food, drinks, pillows, blankets and occasional extra legroom. Even the barf bags may be on the debundling track (rumor has it that the airlines are exploring the sale of advertisements on the plastic-lined bags).

On a recent Air Traffic World Web cast, one speaker joked that the airlines should offer free passage for each passenger who ships two 50-pound bags to Chicago from Boston on the same flight. Charge freight rates for the luggage and let the passenger fly free.
 
If you check out the FedEx Web site, you’ll see what he means. The estimated cost of shipping two 50-pound suitcases is $358 for delivery the next morning and $341 for delivery the next afternoon. Even second-day delivery is priced at $213. And these quotes are for just one way.

Now look at the airfares. According to Orbitz, the fares from Boston to Chicago for flights a month in the future start at $212 round trip and max out at $432. When shipping two 50-pound suitcases to Chicago and back costs more than flying a passenger and the same two suitcases, something is clearly out of whack.

The current bottom line is undeniable: Airlines can extract huge cost savings by providing incentives for passengers to carry less luggage. The first steps have already been taken with the reduction of the free-luggage limit to 50 pounds. The next step, more than likely, will be to limit passengers to just one bag or to charge for extra bags.

My feeling is that a one-bag limit is the farthest the legacy airlines will go in the near future. But I predict that all checked luggage will incur fees in the slightly more distant future.

The Associated Press and Tripso.com's Charlie Leocha contributed to this story.

Full story on msnbc

What do you think? What kind of changes would you support, which ones seem like a not-so-good idea? Personally, looking at all the above "options", I think that maybe they should also at least consider charging for "total weight", i.e. passenger plus luggage has to be below a certain limit - but of course, everybody would probably scream "discrimination" in that case... I don't think they'd risk that.  

What do you think would happen if you really had to pay more for the luggage than for the seat/for the luggage instead of the seat? Would people really take less or just pay for it? Or maybe even just cut back on flying altogether? What would you do?
 
Also note that while you can still check your two bags for free if you fly to North America, you'll get charged if you fly to Asia or Australia... (anyone doing so on BA this year, be advised!)

OK, let's see how long this "survives" this time... 

[Elmo]

Well, even though I've heard some "hints" at reviving this thread, I guess it still takes a woman to make it happen...   

Well, well.  I could have done it, but the last time I tried nobody answered. So I was kind of deterred.

Before I´ll start with your suggested subject, let me say that I´m not really sure this is going to work out. Especially this topic is not so easy to talk about, even in German, so how is the mean English speaker supposed to do it? You´d have to stick to the small talk if you wanted to attract more people.

I haven´t read the entire article. However, last year I just checked in one suitcase weighing the maximum of 23 kg. I didn´t need more and I can´t hardly imagine why people would need more than that (except a few kilos). Bringing only one suitcase seems a little too much sometime. Everyday you have to do the same procedure - unload the car in the evening, reload the car in the morning. In New York it was even more difficult to take it with you in the subway and the bus.

In my opinion, a second bag might become necessary when going abroad more than just for a 3-week vacation. But even then, it is just ridiculous to charge passengers at those steep prices.

I´ll say we will just have to wait how the market reacts. If it´s just British Airways and a few other airlines initiating those charges, the customers needing more than one case will book their flights with other offerers and BA will eventually lose some customers.
BA will do the math and see if they can keep up these fees without losing money.

[dschlei]

I would like to jump back a little in this thread and make some comments about the ability to speak English.

It is always interesting to hear non native speakers reflecting on their ability in speaking the language of their new or host country.  Specifically the accent area is of interest!  As I mentioned in other threats, my wife is a specialist in language acquisition (other than the mother tongue) methods (she teaches at an university’s Grad School of Education to further the language teaching abilities of school teachers that want to get their masters degree).
Even though I live now almost 30 years in the states, people can still detect a slight accent in my speech, sometimes in the ways I pronounce or emphasize words, and sometimes in a different, albeit not wrong, way of sentence structure.  I sound totally American for some person who is not a native speaker (even for people from Britain), but locals know immediately that I am not from here, they can’t place my different way of talking to any specific location, but nevertheless, they can hear that it is different.  I do not hear any difference at all.

Language acquisition research seem to point out that people, that achieve fluency or near fluent command of a foreign language prior to puberty will be able to use this language without any accent, even if they leave the language area for a while and come back to again it after several years.  They might be missing a certain number of colloquial words, but they still do not have an accent.  This phenomena seems to be due to a “rewiring” of certain neuron patterns of the brain at the time of puberty.  After the “rewiring is finished, accent free language reproduction seems not to be possible, unless one undergoes accent reduction training (like a lot of actors do for their different roles).  However, the accent reduction training can remove most of the pronunciation accents, but is not able to remove the different sentence patterns of a freely formulated conversational communication.

I for myself find it much easier by now to communicate in English than in German!  However, I still have that slight foreignness in my English speech, but I am totally accent free (if one oversees the rhinenish coloration in my language) when I speak German!

[Elmo]

That´s an interesting subject, dschlei. Seems like you are referring to our accent discussion.
6 months ago, I´ve been to the US the first time ever. Everyone said they will refer to my foreign accent. I don´t know the percentage of people noticing your accent, but it was relatively low with me. No idea what that says about the American people or my German accent. It happened sometime, though.

I´ve not been wondering about foreign accents in general, but to different accents in America. If I recall correctly, ratlady said something like "There are hundreds of different accents around the country. The only one I can differ is the strong southern tongue.

I assume you just need to live over there to get to know all the little nuances and figure out who is a non-native speaker, just as you would be able to do in German. If you live in Germany as I do, I´d say it is very difficult, if not almost impossible, to find out about all the differences, because it´s just Americans for me which I hear or see on radio/television and it sounds pretty much the same to me.

[dschlei]

That´s an interesting subject, dschlei. Seems like you are referring to our accent discussion.
6 months ago, I´ve been to the US the first time ever. Everyone said they will refer to my foreign accent. I don´t know the percentage of people noticing your accent, but it was relatively low with me. No idea what that says about the American people or my German accent. It happened sometime, though.

I´ve not been wondering about foreign accents in general, but to different accents in America. If I recall correctly, ratlady said something like "There are hundreds of different accents around the country. The only one I can differ is the strong southern tongue.

I assume you just need to live over there to get to know all the little nuances and figure out who is a non-native speaker, just as you would be able to do in German. If you live in Germany as I do, I´d say it is very difficult, if not almost impossible, to find out about all the differences, because it´s just Americans for me which I hear or see on radio/television and it sounds pretty much the same to me.

You are correct, I am referring to the accent discussion.  And you are also correct, you need to live in an area to hear the subtle differences in the speech of persons not just right from that very area (like the differences I can hear in Rhineland German, which some person from Bavaria may not hear).  The same, of course applies to the USA, too!  The type of language one mostly hears on radio or TV in the states is more or less the way, English is spoken in the upper Mid West.  One could probably call this Hoch-Englisch (American).  However, even in this mid west version of English you have differences.  If one goes, for example, in Minnesota to the north west, towards the North Dakota border, a lot of Scandinavian concerning intonation and verbiage is used in the speech there.  Here and more to the south, as well as to the east, you can find German influences in the daily language.  Things like Bratwurst, Sauerkraut, Gesundheit, Grenzstein, Angst, etc. belong to the everyday language of the people here.  Big differences of course are between the spoken language here and that of the “Deep South” the former Dixie states.  Sometimes we have a hard time to understand their language, specifically if it is Cajun or Bayou type English.

[ratlady]

Well, even though I've heard some "hints" at reviving this thread, I guess it still takes a woman to make it happen...   

Well, well.  I could have done it, but the last time I tried nobody answered. So I was kind of deterred.

oops    OK, I'll give you that much... I guess it was just a little too much talking about the same things over and again, with everybody pretty much in agreement... thus, running out of things to say...

Before I´ll start with your suggested subject, let me say that I´m not really sure this is going to work out. Especially this topic is not so easy to talk about, even in German, so how is the mean English speaker supposed to do it? You´d have to stick to the small talk if you wanted to attract more people.

Well, it was a try  ... at least it brought the thread back to page one, if nothing else... as I said, it was just kind of a "coincidence", following the discussion about how we all could pack a little less and reduce fuel consumption/carbon dioxide output... some of the arguments were along the lines of "relation", i.e. how little a few pounds mattered when you look at the "big picture" - therefore, I found it interesting that (some) airlines are (or are thinking of) cutting back on "little things" like cutlery, magazines, blankets/pillows, or even those "barf bags" in order to save on fuel... But hey, I'm flexible - and if we get back to an "old" topic, maybe we can get some "new voices" to weigh in on it... Thanks @dschlei, by the way! 

And you are also correct, you need to live in an area to hear the subtle differences in the speech of persons not just right from that very area

...more than that, you gotta somehow have at least some sort of "ear" for it (or so I believe...)... me, even if I could tell "subtle" differences in speech, I'd never be able to pinpoint a "geographic origin"... not only true for English, but also for German (and even more so, Spanish). Of course, if it's REAL obvious, that's a different thing... but it'll always be a mystery to me how some folks can practically tell you your home town as soon as you open your mouth - and, at least my impression, even more so here in the US than back home in Germany... (?)

Oh, by the way - while they don't really speak "English" Down South - "Bratwurst" and "Sauerkraut" are well-known around here (well, at least in our area)... 

[DocHoliday]

Nice to see this thread come alive again (even though I haven't been avctive here before).

I think dschlei brought up an interesting topic. Just recently I read an article about people, who were brought up bilingualy (if that is an english word). It said, that if you learn another language in your early childhood (in that article it was in preschool age), there is only one language-area in your brain. Meaning no matter which of those early aquired languages you are communicating in, you will allways use the same neurons in your brain. Whereas if you learn a foreign language in adolescense or as an adult, you will use a totally distinct area of the brain for this language. In consequence your brain will somehow always have to translate between your mother tongue and the foreign language, even if you aren't aware of that . Meaning that no matter how long you have been living in the USA (for example) an native speaker with a "good ear" will always be able to tell that you are not a native speaker. Just like dschlei said, it's not only the accent but also slight differences in sentence structure or different use of metaphores or other subtle differences.

What this article didn't talk about was the fact, that people sometimes aquire a foreign accent in their native language if they live abroad for a longer time. I find that quite fascinating. For example there are some german immigrants to the US, who still have a german accent allthough they have been  living there for 30 or more years and at the same time have an american accent if they spek German. I noticed that, when I saw a tv-documentary in which people were interviewed, who came to the US fleeing Nazi-Germany in the 1930ies and 40ties. Another example is a German football coach (Sepp Piontek) who became Denmarks national coach in the 80ies and after only three or four years started to spek German with a little Danish accent.

It's hard to concentrate enough this late but I hope my English can be understood. I'll definetely be back here, to practice my English.

[missy]

Will Dschlei ever stop mentioning that he has been living in the states for more then 30 years and his wife...blablabla.....sorry...I just couldn't help myself...in just about every thread you post dschlei ,you put an emphasis on this...congrats...you won the immigration medal of honor.

I also believe that reviving this thread with a discussion about excess luggage/weight is the wrong approach to attract  members into this thread.
It is just to dry and complicated to even consider it...sorry...my opinion.

My accent is killing me.

At most times I don't even have one...and I can go through my day without being detected.But don't let me get nervous ,it is all over then...I just have to say 'hi',and people ask me if I am from Germany.
I have aquired a Texas accent,even though I don't live there....I guess I just have been around Texas folks for too long.
What I truly don't understand is the fact that some germans here in this corner have been around for 30 years but still speak a very very broken english.I just find it hard to believe that after such a long time in the US, they didn't master this language.They usually have american spouses,their children don't even speak german anymore and their grandchildren only have heard of Germany...but never been there.
It will always be a mystery to me.

I have a hard time communicating in german,I must admit.
My writing is okay...I have no problems expressing myself on message boards etc,but my spoken german sucks....when I listen to myself ,I always think I sound weird in some strange way...I always that my german sentence constellations are somewhat wrong...it just doesn't sound right.

That is besides the fact that I am always searching for the right german word...my poor mother has to figure my denglisch out each time we are on the phone.
 
I think one day my german speaking ability will be lost all together.


Anyways...this was just a glimpse in my blablabla......

I am watching the Grammys right now....and I love it...anybody else watching???


Missy

[americanhero]

Grammy Awards ... cool. I just switched it on that moment.  Thnx.


Greetz,

Yvonne

[Elmo]

Nice to see this thread is flourishing again - at least for now. I think we´re missing one old member here. 

There must be about hundreds of different accents in Germany, too. You just can´t relate one accents to one state. I´m from Hessen and there´s not only one "Hessian". It changes more and more the further away you go from your hometown. And it is also impossible for Germans to have an ear for every existing accent. Probably one knows a few from their area and those commonly known.

The American accent thing is still a mystery to me and yet it is fascinating. As I said, I am not able to figure out the home town my conversational partner was born in, but I DO want to know. The way I see it, the language differences seem to be not quite as extreme as they are in German (except southern blabbing, of course  ). I always imagine a non-native listening to a Bavarian or a Saxonian. Even if they understand quite a bit a German, they probably wouldn´t be able to understand THEM.

@DocHoliday: I knew there must be a solution to this kids-are-fast-language-learners thing (really, Americans absolutely love those wordplays, don´t they?  ). Back in my childhood, we started learning English from the fith class on. Now, they start in third class. It seems like this generation is going to have to big plus in terms of English, but if you want them to be fluent, you will have to raise them bilingually from birth on. But therefore, you need to live in a suitable environment, so they are able to speak English outside the house and German inside, for instance. Otherwise it´s hard not to confuse your kid.